Article About My Sympathetic-Unsympathetic Response to Shannon Harris Brings Strong Reaction from Feminists, Humanists, Apostates, & False Teachers

Helping Christians to judge righteously, think biblically, and live courageously.  That is the byline on my blog.  It can be a daunting challenge – for anybody.  Increasingly, voices rise up against the knowledge of God and oppose the Word of God.  One might expect this from the world, but it comes equally from the supposed church.  

My previous article drew a strong reaction from a lot of people.  They were quick to defend Shannon Harris, oppose me, and dismiss the Bible.  At times, it was irrational.  On the other hand, the article was appreciated by many followers of Jesus Christ. 

“The Woman They Wanted: Shattering the Illusion of the Good Christian Wife” and author Shannon Harris. (Photo by Dave Ko)  

We live in days when it is increasingly difficult to stand for biblical truth.  One person wrote, "This article is bullshit."  Opposition will surely follow.  I hope this article is helpful in addressing several topics where clarity is needed so we can stand strong in the faith. 

It is also troubling to read the responses of some who condemn abuse and hypocrisy, but are abusive and hypocritical in the way they go about it.  Then when they are corrected, there is no apology.  For example, “I will ask you to retract and apologize your statement above praising Josh’s abusive actions: its racist, misogynistic.”  This demand was bizarre!  More later. 

In this follow-up article, I address many topics that came up.  Some surprising.  For instance, has “created in the image of God” become the new gospel, is man partly or totally depraved, does he have the ability to respond to the gospel, did Jesus teach “Calvinism,” is man’s will free, is election unconditional, once saved does man stay saved? 

I also address the seriousness of apostasy as presented in Scripture.  If God is holy, and Jesus’ shed blood is precious, and the Holy Spirit is gracious, then renouncing the Trinitarian God is damnable.  No abuse suffered at the hands of evil men ever justifies walking away from our Creator and Redeemer.  We must also bear in mind that our suffering in America does not compare to the suffering experienced by the people of God in the OT, NT, and throughout church history.  As Paul said to Timothy, “Endure hardship” (2 Tim. 4:5).  That is a foreign concept in our day. 

In addition, the subject of what constitutes a cult came up and whether Sovereign Grace Churches is a cult or cult-like, and whether its doctrine is “rotten to the core” as one person put it.  In answering, I talk about the difference between right doctrine and proper application.  I also comment on the relation between inspiration and inerrancy since some embrace the former while rejecting the later.  I address whether Jesus and Paul are at odds with each other and whose words are more inspired? 

Finally, I talk about Patriarchy vs. patriarchalism, the leadership of men in the OT and NT, the wonderful roles of women prioritized in the NT, egalitarianism versus complementarianism, the destructive power of feminism, misnomers about misogyny, victimology versus sanctification, trauma versus suffering, the proper use of theological words, the nature of the atonement – penal substitution, and false gospels based upon a faulty understanding of God’s love and man’s goodness. 

Below is my introduction to the original article and all the responses I received on my Facebook page.  The article has been up for over two weeks.  The comments already made are sufficient.  I will not be taking additional ones. 

My Sympathetic-Unsympathetic Response to Shannon Harris’s Book, The Woman They Wanted
Thursday, July 11, 2024 at 1:19PM 

Last year, Shannon Harris published a book titled, The Woman They Wanted.  The subtitle is Shattering the Illusion of the Good Christian Wife.  The former wife of Joshua Harris is now an outspoken feminist who doesn’t know if God exists.  

I’ve added explanatory notes in brackets.  

“I assumed the church understood love.  I assumed it loved me, a woman.  It never occurred to me that misogyny [the hatred of women] was a reason behind the teaching of submission.  Or that shaming those living outside the box of patriarchal norms was really just a way of hiding hatred and fear.  This has to be one of the greatest ironies of the church.  To proclaim a Creator so loudly, yet disrespect the creation [women] so deeply.” (p. 215) 

“I don’t know if God exists, but if so, then I have a feeling God is like music.  Music comes to life by and through human expression.  That is the beauty of it, the personalized nature of it.  No two people hear or play the same piece of music in the exact same way.  Whether we are the one singing or playing or listening, it isn’t about doing it right.” (p. 235) 

In the book, her revulsion to the good Christian wife is primarily directed at C.J. Mahaney, who approved her marriage to Josh, and Carolyn Mahaney, who discipled her.  Ultimately, however, her attack is on God who designed men and women for different roles and responsibilities that beautifully complement each other.  These parts of the book anger me because she mocks the wisdom of God and inserts herself as the all-wise one.  

But I am also sympathetic for what Shannon and thousands of others went through when C.J. and Carolyn forsook Covenant Life Church and cut off their relationships with dear friends because they were sinfully offended and angry.  

In the book, Shannon captures well the impact on her, the church, and Sovereign Grace Ministries.  This is before she was embittered toward C.J. and Carolyn and became a feminist.  What Shannon experienced is what we all experienced.  It had a devastating impact on many souls. 

Kim Leeper Mann 
Many lives have been destroyed by the Cult 

Sheryl Stiemann 
Brent, thank you for sharing this, I’ve read some of her book and my heart hurts for what she endured.  She’s a victim in this scheme, and it’s good for you to share the backstory. 

John Mann 
It’s very sad what CJ did to Josh and Shannon, but they should be running to God, not away from him.  I am thankful that we escaped this church, which nearly destroyed us as well.  I’m also thankful that God has led us to a church where we aren’t constantly feeling a sense of guilt and shame.  I pray for those who are still trapped under CJ’s power. 

Mark Littrell 
John Mann How are you bro … miss you man.  I hope you are doing well 

Paul Petry 
John Mann: “...they should be running to God, not away from him.”
 
It is so grievous to see this pattern repeated over and over again.  For many, their entire Christian experience has been bound up with these “churches” or charismatic leaders.  When the facade crumbles, the faith of many is shipwrecked - and they lash out at whatever they perceive, rightly or wrongly, is associated with the group, or leader(s) responsible for their trauma. 

Van Rue 
John Mann when someone’s very identity is attacked to the core, they cannot seperate the damage into nice little boxes and pick and choose where they go.  Your “should” here contains unrealistic expectations, and is an exgeration of a false black & white that is devoid of any opportunity to heal, and shows lack of understanding of trauma.  It’s always facinating how we respond when pre-packaged theology fails.
 
John Mann 
Mark Littrell We are doing great.  We moved to Florida last November to be near our grandchildren, and I retired this year.  It’s great to hear from you my friend!
 
Geoffrey Williams
John Mann I don’t think anyone can say what they should be doing, especially people associated or once associated with Sovereign Grace Toxicity.  I am glad you and many of us escaped it, but did we all escape the damage?  Did we all escape the lifelong effects?  Did we all escape the warped application of theology and now we are suddenly right on course?   Absolutely not. The damage is extensive.  The psychological and spiritual effects are real.  And, if you were in leadership, the question isn’t what victims should be doing, but, rather, what should we have done?
 
Van Rue 
Geoffrey Williams exactly...nail on head
 
Brent Detwiler 
Van Rue Shannon’s very identity was not attacked to the core but even if it was join the long of line of people throughout the OT, NT, and church history who experienced far, far, far worse “trauma” but were not traumatized.  They picked and chose where they would go next and that often meant to prison, martyrdom, harsh persecution, or destitution.  
 
Victimology is the pre-packaged work of secular psychology.  Thank God for classical theology.  Here is how we should live as men and women of faith.
 
Hebrews 11:35-38 Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. [36] Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. [37] They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— [38] of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
 
Geoffrey Williams 
Brent Detwiler they were also victims.  I think your issue is how some people use victimology rather than the state of being a victim: a person harmed, injured, or killed or duped or tricked as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.
 
Pam Wasilewski Patton 
John Mann , I feel that many of the people who were caught up in the cult-like experiences of these abusive and unbiblical churches may not even know the true God, much less run to Him when they realize the need to escape the abuse and control.  A young woman in my Small Group at Church literally deconstructed everything she was ever taught and went through a six-year period where she explored everything but the true gospel.  She finally encountered God… The real God… Not the man-made God used for the sake of control and exercising power over others.  I can understand why Shannon is currently throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  This is what she associates with God and Christianity.  I think when we are severely wounded, we are tempted to believe lies.  I think there is hope that she and her ex-husband will come back to a full and true knowledge of the real God.  But, in my opinion, it isn’t the patriarchal, misogynistic, overbearing God that we have seen portrayed in many of the American churches.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Geoffrey Williams Here is my definition of victimology as used in this context. It comes from the Oxford Dictionary. “The possession of an outlook, arising from real or imagined victimization, that seems to glory and indulge in the state of being a victim.” 

Tim Scott 
Excellent article. 

Nora Clarke Lutyk 
Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church by Diane Langberg, PhD, for many years board member of the American Association of Christian Counselors--our foremost authority on trauma/abuse and the abuse of power.   This book will bring healing to many through its wisdom and truth. It would help heal anyone ever a part of PDI/SGM/SGC.  Our Lord Jesus, our healer. 

Eve Marie 
Nora Clarke Lutyk excellent book 

Jill Huzzard Tatter 
Sadly, this is so often the “natural consequences” of deep spiritual and psychological abuse by the church.  Especially when a brand new Christian is the victim.  Honestly, she never had a chance and it would be a genuine miracle if she ever got a chance to meet God after she was set up to fail. 

Brent Detwiler 
Jill Huzzard Tatter I strongly disagree.  Shannon had so many advantages.  She heard great teaching from the Bible especially about the cross of Christ.  Her apostasy is nothing short of rebellion against the Savior.  She is rejecting Him.  The One who took her sin and died in her place to satisfy God justice and turn away God’s wrath.  There is no sin more serious.  The book of Hebrews repeatedly addresses those who are tempted to fall away with warning passages about forsaking Christ.  Here is one of them.  
 
Hebrews 10:26-31 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, [27] but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. [28] Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [29] How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? [30] For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” [31] It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 

Donna Axell 
Brent Detwiler That reply sounds so typical Calvinist.  

Jill Huzzard Tatter 
Brent Detwiler who & where did she hear “great teachings” from?  I thought her main church experience was at the Maryland church, so we know it wouldn’t have been there.  While mature Christians can maybe glean something useful within such a spiritually corrupt setting, it’s almost impossible for new Christians to.

Everett Tellez 
And yet God is still good.  I’m not trying to minimize what those “thousands” of “Christians” went through.  I was a part of SGM for 8 years, attended and visited many SGM churches, and my faith grew exponentially the entire time.  It is sad what the culture became.  But good thing Christ says to forgive your brother seventy times seven times, because what that does is build a culture of grace… God’s grace, the very thing that NONE of us deserve  

Jeremy Hatfield 
Very good article.  Thanks for sharing it.
 
Steve Wells 
Brent Detwiler if nothing else the remarks you make about Josh and Shannon seem inconsistent with the Calvinism or belief in a “sovereign grace” you claim to believe in.  This basically claims that God gives some an “irresistible grace” and have no choice but to be saved while those not given this have no chance of being saved.  It also teaches that it is God who decides who will be saved and will persevere in the faith (not fall away).  TULIP 

According to this doctrine you claim to believe, neither Josh or Shannon were ever true believers since they fell away from the faith.  Doesn’t Calvinism include the “perseverance of the saints” that states is one falls away they were never really a believer? 

This is the typical inconsistency I see with SG and former SG Leaders with what they claim to believe in a “sovereign grace” but actions and statements contradict this. 

Rosie Marie 
Steve Wells 1 John 2:18-19 explains it.  In essence, they were never believers in the first place. 

“18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” 

Sarah Trost 
Steve Wells I wouldn’t consider this an inconsistency.  It is truly possible that they were not born again.  But as someone who deconstructed after being effectively excommunicated from SGM and Acts 29 and am confident in my salvation, I’m not willing to judge their election or their salvation.  It’s in the Lord’s hands. 

Shelia Zahm 
Rosie Marie that’s convenient
 
Brent Detwiler 
Steve Wells If anyone would like to learn more about the doctrines of grace including the perseverance of saints, I’d highly recommended this book by Sam Storms. Chosen for Life: The Case for Divine Election: Storms, Sam: 9781581348439: Amazon.com: Books
 
AMAZON.COM
Chosen for Life: The Case for Divine Election
 
Steve Wells 
Brent Detwiler one thing you need to admit is that since Josh & Shannon fell away that according to this belief neither were ever elected to salvation unless at some later time they come back to professing Christ.  In other words, according to what you believe, God never gave them the “irresistible grace” that Calvinism teaches.
 
Sarah Trost 
Steve Wells correct.  Unless they return to the Lord that means they were never saved to begin with.  Because that’s what the Bible says.  Joshua and Shannon can’t evict the Holy Spirit that’s not possible.   And if they never get saved it’s because they don’t want the creator to be their Lord and Savior and that’s what free will is all about isn’t it?
 
God gives some the desire to serve Him.  And to others He does not and they don’t choose Him.  Right now it seems Josh and Shannon don’t choose Him.
 
I’m praying for them.  I haven’t seen Josh in 30 years and I’m still praying for them.
 
Steve Wells 
Sarah Trost is don’t agree with Calvinism like you seem to but am baffled at some who claim to believe it but their actions betray their supposed beliefs like current and former SG Leaders.
 
Mark Burns 
Brent Detwiler thank you brother as you state candidly in your article regarding Shannon having likely a head knowledge of being well taught the gospel but very likely never experience the new birth (John 3:3) and being in Christ and a new creation in Him (2 Cor 5:17)
 
“Shannon knew the gospel.  Fundamentally, she learned it from C.J.  She makes no mention of this great blessing.  Now she is singing songs for the self-centered life.  Her apostasy could not be greater.  As you read the book, it is clear she never surrendered her will to the Lord Jesus Christ.  Her “conversion” was a superficial one.  I don’t think she was ever born-again.”
 
Apparent the same for Joshua Harris even if he Pastored 50 years...and in the years he did Pastor in SG very likely an unconverted man.
 
Jill Huzzard Tatter 
Mark Burns she learned the Gospel “from CJ”.  There’s the trouble right there.  And with his methodology, I would definitely question this being a “great blessing” (Is Brent being sarcastic, here?). Oi! I would venture that CJ is responsible for pushing many away from Christ.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Steve Wells Your problem is not with John Calvin, it is with Jesus Christ.  He taught total depravity, unconditional election, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints.  Here is a basic outline.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Steve Wells 
THE FOUR GREAT IMPOSSIBILITIES
John 6:35-45, 60-65
 
I. Impossible to Come to Christ in Own Ability – Total Depravity
A. Man Is Unwilling to Believe – Total Depravity (6:36, 64)
B. Man Is Unable to Come – Total Inability (6:44, 65)
 
II. Impossible Not to Come to Christ if Given by the Father – Unconditional Election (6:37)
 
III. Impossible to Come to Christ Unless Drawn by the Father – Irresistible Grace
A. The Father Effectually Draws (6:44-45)
B. The Father Enables and Grants (6:65)
 
IV. Impossible to Come to Christ and Then Ever Be Lost – The Perseverance of the Saints
A. Will Never Be Cast Out (6:37)
B. Will Never Be Lost (6:39)
C. Will Be Raised Up on the Last Day (6:40) 

Steve Wells 
Brent Detwiler I really wasn’t up to debating Calvinism but pointing out how you seem to not really believe it in your post.  You need to be more consistent.  Accept that God didn’t give Shannon and Josh what they needed to repent and persevere according to what you claim to believe.
 
What you mention in your comment is certainly one interpretation of what the Bible teaches but certainly not the only one as you seem to apply.  If you only read the passages you mention then it is pretty cut and dry but one has to also consider other passages.  Also, Paul is who taught what you quoted and not Jesus.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Jesus’ teaching is clear and it is definitive.  It is not “one interpretation.”  So is Paul in places like Romans 9.  
 
As I read Shannon’s book, I don’t think she was ever truly converted though she surely had a knowledge of God and some experience with Christ and the Holy Spirit.  That doesn’t mean she was saved and born again.  The same may be true with Josh.  I don’t know.  I understand your position and it is not without merit.  Can a genuine believer be lost forever?  I don’t think so because of Christ’s promise to keep us.  He is the good Shepherd and we are united to him forever.
 
Finally, Paul taught what Jesus taught in John 6 and 10 and other places.  Obviously, you don’t believe in the unity of Scripture.  Paul’s teaching is no less inspired than Jesus’ teaching.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Jill Huzzard Tatter While I don’t promote it, C.J. wrote an excellent book titled, The Cross Centered Life.  It is about the biblical gospel.  Shannon also learned the gospel from the finest teachers and authors in evangelicalism.  Most importantly, she learned the gospel from the Bible she once read and studied.
 
Steve Wells 
Brent Detwiler regarding your comment that “Jesus teaching is clear and is definitive” you seem to be ignoring a large group that don’t agree with Calvinism and believe man has free will to decide whether to accept Christ or not.
 
I remember someone commented on one of the Sovereign Grave Survivor blogs how she compiled two lists of scriptures where one supported predestination and Calvinism while the other set free will choice.  That list wasn’t well accepted by her care group leader.
 
This is why there has been a long debate for,centuries over Calvinism vs. free will.
 
Jill Huzzard Tatter 
Brent Detwiler didn’t she learn those while enduring psychological abuse?  I think her experience is a perfect example of why Luke 17:2 “It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble” was necessary.  God’s always understood the extreme damage that psychological abuse causes.  Plus, none of us are God and have no actual clue what God is doing in her life.  Not to mention that her story isn’t done yet.  Hopefully, nowhere near so.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Steve Wells In the Pastors College, I taught both sets of texts.  Those that extol the sovereignty of God in election and those that teach the free (but not autonomous) will of man.  But here’s the main point, man would never choose God if God did not choose him first.  Arminians, in contrast, believe they chose God and therefore God chose them.  This exalts man, not the sovereign grace of God.
 
Steve Wells 
Brent Detwiler if you truly believe what you claim to believe, why did you state this in your post:
 
“Her apostasy could not be greater.  As you read the book, it is clear she never surrendered her will to the Lord Jesus Christ.  Her ‘conversion’ was a superficial one.  I don’t think she was ever born-again.“
 
Shouldn’t you state that Shannon was never really given this supposed “irresistible grace” that Calvinism teaches.  With an “irresistible grace” no one “surrenders” but has no choice.
 
I am just wondering why you seem so inconsistent in what your write vs. claim to believe.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Steve Wells Man will never decide to believe unless the Holy Spirit draws him.  It is impossible.  He is under the dominion of sin.  His depravity is pervasive.  Notice all the universal negatives.  
 
Romans 3:9-12 “What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, [10] as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; [11] no one understands; no one seeks for God. [12] All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
 
Steve Wells 
Brent Detwiler You can always selectively choose scripture to support your belief while neglecting other passages that don’t.  What is sad is when some teach that various interpretations aren’t acceptable but only that persons.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Steve Wells I am not being selective.  You are intentionally ignoring the clear and explicit teaching of Scripture about man’s depravity and inability in Rom. 3 which is also taught in many other passages.  You should read, The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther where he contends with Erasmus.
 
Steve Wells 
Brent Detwiler as I said there are certainly a lot of other passages as well as books that support a free will and doesn’t state that God only chooses some for salvation (others have no chance of coming to Christ) as you claim to believe.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Steve Wells Here is what I believe.  God’s sovereign choice in election is based solely upon his mercy; not man’s goodness, foreseen faith, or choosing.  
 
Romans 9:6-29 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, [7] and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” [8] This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. [9] For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” [10] And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, [11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— [12] she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” [13] As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
 
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
 
[19] You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” [21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? [22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— [24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? [25] As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” [26] “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
 
Van Rue 
Brent Detwiler no, those are theological points, we must never confuse the words of Christ with any theologian or we are elevating that theologian to be Christ himself.
 
Van Rue 
Brent Detwiler Brett, you fail to understand the SGM was a Cult.  In Cults they often use the same words, but the meanings are twisted.  Nothing SGM or CJ Mahaney or anyone associated with SGM provides theologically is untainted, its all part of a complex and subtle lie.  If God worked there, its not because of CJ or SGM, its evidence of his Grace to work in spite of its sickening crimes.  No book, sermon or dialog that ever came out SGM is safe, its all rotten to the core.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Van Rue I am quoting Scripture (Rom. 9:6-29)!  Not theological points.  Nor do I confuse the words of Christ with Paul.  They both address the same subject in the same way.  Like Jesus told his disciples, “You did not choose me, I chose you.”
 
Van Rue 
Brent Detwiler then share where Jesus used the words “total depravity” or “irresistible grace”, why not use the exact words of Christ?
 
Brent Detwiler 
Here is what Jesus taught.  I already posted this simple outline for Steve Wells.  You simply won’t bow to the explicit teaching of Scripture about the sinfulness of men.
 
THE FOUR GREAT IMPOSSIBILITIES
John 6:35-45, 60-65
 
I. Impossible to Come to Christ in Own Ability – Total Depravity
A. Man Is Unwilling to Believe – Total Depravity (6:36, 64)
B. Man Is Unable to Come – Total Inability (6:44, 65)
 
II. Impossible Not to Come to Christ if Given by the Father – Unconditional Election (6:37)
 
III. Impossible to Come to Christ Unless Drawn by the Father – Irresistible Grace
A. The Father Effectually Draws (6:44-45)
B. The Father Enables and Grants (6:65)
 
IV. Impossible to Come to Christ and Then Ever Be Lost – The Perseverance of the Saints
A. Will Never Be Cast Out (6:37)
B. Will Never Be Lost (6:39)
C. Will Be Raised Up on the Last Day (6:40) 
 
Van Rue 
Brent Detwiler no, I simply won’t put words in Christs mouth he didn’t choose himself.  I believe God is capable enough to write them as he saw fit, and omniscient enough include all he needed.... for all eternity I also don’t believe he would create something so complicated it would take 1500 years for someone to finally understand it.  Its at its core a subtle form of Gnosticsm.
 
Steve Wells 
Van Rue good point about confusing “theological points” or perhaps interpretation with with the actual bible.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Van Rue What you are doing is taking words OUT of Jesus’ mouth!  Man is incapable of coming to Christ because his sinfulness affects every aspect of his being.  It is pervasive and radical.  He is not partially good as God defines it.
 
“No one is good, no not one.  No one seeks God, no not one.  All have turned away” (Rom. 3).  Man is “a prisoner of sin” (Gal. 3:22) and under the dominion of Satan (2 Cor 4:4, Col. 1:13).  He is locked up and cannot get free if not for the sovereign work of God.
 
Eph. 2:1-3 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
 
You men are humanists.   You believe in the goodness of man to choose Christ. That makes man the one who should be praised for his salvation.  That is idolatry of the highest order.  God is the one who has called us to himself by his sovereign grace, mercy, and power.  Listen to the Word of God.
 
Rom. 9:15-16 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
 
You men refuse to deal with the clear teaching of Jesus and Paul in John 6, 10, and Rom. 3, 9.  The word “total depravity” is not used but the reality is so manifestly taught in these passages and many others (e.g. Mark 7:18-23).
 
Your problem is with the Bible.  You want to be sovereign and take credit for your salvation.  There is no “to the glory of God alone” in your theology.  Rom. 11:38 “For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.”
 
Van Rue 
Brent Detwiler Note, I said nothing about taking credit for my salvation, that = is = your = twisted view = alone.  I have no problem with Bible, only those who twist and limit it.  Man is not “partially good” as you say, agreed, but both men & women are both irrevocably created in the Imago Dei, the image of God (Genesis 1:27).  This not something that is added-on, its elemental and inseparable from our very being, it gives EVERY human IMMENSE unimaginable VALUE.... its inherent, God-given, irrefutable, unbreakable, inalterable, and uncontestable... and it is our Imago Dei you neglect and distort.
 
Van Rue 
ALL (panta) things and people were created through Christ (John 1:3), Christ came to that “so that through him all (pantes) might believe.” (John 1:7).  Note that panta /pantes mean both ALL and ALWAYS, this work and then hope stretches throughout all time.  Again, this is irrefutable.  This means the Imago Dei endures for all creation, for all time, for ALWAYS.  The hope of the Gospel is extend equally as well, to ALL for ALWAYS (pantes) in this God is Just.  Not because of who we are, but because of who He is.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Van Rue You are false teacher.  Imago Dei condemns man, it does commend or save man.  You are preaching a false gospel.
 
Adam and Eve were created in the image of God but that image was shattered and corrupted when they rebelled against God. As a result, spiritual and physical death entered the world.  Man inherited a sin nature and actual sin spread to all men (Rom. 5:12-14).
 
Soon God decided to destroy mankind with a flood because, “The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Gen. 6:5).  Moses taught “total depravity” too.
 
In his fallen state, man uses his abilities to glorify himself not God.  Further, the faculties of man (mind, will, emotions, and body) are used to do and create evil.  That is why the NT teaches that we are to be conformed to Imago Christi. That is the likeness of Christ.
 
This is your last comment, and it my last comment also.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Van Rue All who repent and believe in the gospel will be saved.  But Jesus later teaches in the same book that man can’t repent and believe unless God draws him.
 
It is the “kindness of God that leads us to repentance” (Rom. 2:4) and it is the Holy Spirit who opens our hearts to believe (Acts 16:14).
 
Acts 13:48 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”
 
You say, “Again, this is irrefutable. This means the Imago Dei endures for all creation, for all time, for ALWAYS.”  This is heretical or incoherent.  You are talking about salvation but base it upon the image of God as though we are children of God by nature.  No, we are “the children of Satan” (1 John 3:10).
 
You have no gospel. That is why you never speak of the substitutionary and propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for our sins.

Brent Detwiler 
Van Rue It was not a cult.  Its theology was sound. At times, its leadership was cult-like.  You say, “No book, sermon or dialog that ever came out SGM is safe, its all rotten to the core.”  That is absurd.  Even irrational.  Here is their current Statement of Faith.  Please demonstrate from Scripture where it is “rotten to the core.”
https://webelieve.sovereigngrace.com/the-scriptures

Brent Detwiler 
Van Rue So using theological words that represent the clear teaching of Scripture like Incarnation, Trinity, Providence, penal substitution, verbal plenary inspiration, etc. is gnostic.  It is no wonder you do not understand Christian doctrine.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Van Rue In your theological system, you believe man has the power to choose good including the power to repent and believe.  He is not sinful in the core of his being.  He is sinful on the periphery.
 
You have rejected total depravity or pervasive depravity.  Man has a free will but that will is always governed by his fallen nature.  In your system, you believe his will is not captive to his sinful cravings.  He is partially depraved and simply hindered from believing.
 
You may say man needs help to believe, but ultimately his choice is determinative, not God’s choice. I grant man’s choice is significant, but it is not determinative.  God’s decree of election is determinative.
 
2 Tim. 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 

Steve Wells 
You also left out how much Carolyn groomed Shannon to be the leader’s wife that SG Leadership wanted vs. letting Shannon be her own person.  This includes Carolyn hijacking Shannon’s wedding decisions and even leaving Shannon’s mother out of the planning.

Brent Detwiler 
Steve Wells I left many things out.  Including those things that put Shannon in a bad light in her own words.  I focused on the apostasy, feminism, & personal impact upon her when betrayed by C.J., et al. 

Steve Wells 
It was also sad what Josh did to Shannon’s music collection: 

“One day I came home to discover my childhood music collection had been thrown away for the very same reason.”
 
When you realize just how important music is to Shannon then this is quite a big deal.  Maybe like throwing away all of someone’s college text books or everything associated with their hobby that they were quite serious about. 

Van Rue 
Steve Wells it was an attack on her identity, it really had nothing to do with the music itself, it was music she “chose”... and that was its offense.. 

Steve Wells 
Van Rue if nothing else Josh could have at least packed it up so it wasn’t p where people could see it if that was the issue.  Also something that Josh could make this decision for Shannon.
 
Brent Detwiler
Van Rue It did have “to do with the music itself.”  It was the nature of the music and the ungodly lyrics that promoted a worldview contrary to Christ.  No Chirstian should desire to sing this kind of music.  Josh was not attacking her identity.  He was helping her to grow in Christ and I’m quite sure he went about it charitably.
 
Steve Wells
Brent Detwiler I question it being done “charitably” when she came home and found they ALL were thrown out.  Some of the music might have had issues but I doubt all of her music did.  My guess is Josh was under pressure to put on a certain facade and this was part of it.
 
Van Rue
Brent Detwiler if you are not aware, the false teaching on “Devil’s music” was made up by radio preacher Billy J Hargis.  He is forgotten today due to his scandals, but from about 1950-70 he was the most popular radio preacher in the US.  He is also a violent racist and created this false teaching so “whites” didn’t listen to “black” musicians like Little Richard.  To repeat this false teaching even in part, is to re-promote his racism.  Frankly, “Christian” radio and TV is far more dangerous than any secular music I’ve ever heard.  Additionally, Shannon agency as a human was taken, since this was done behind her back.  Its her right to choose or exclude music as she sees fit.  You deny her basic agency, so your comment of “charitable” praising Josh’s actions reveals your misogyny, which you mask as a complementarian.  I will ask you to retract and apologize your statement above praising Josh’s abusive actions: its racist, misogynistic, and it neither true of Shannon or the music (since you have no idea what was in her collection) nor edifying to the body of Christ.
 
Brent Detwiler
Van Rue “To repeat this false teaching even in part, is to re-promote his racism.”  Your accusation is bizarre.  Our position on secular music had nothing to do with race.  Read Bob Kauflin’s chapter on “God, My Heart, and Music” in our book on Worldliness. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/.../worldliness.../
 
THEGOSPELCOALITION.ORG
“Worldliness,” Edited by C. J. Mahaney
 
Brent Detwiler
Van Rue “Additionally, Shannon agency as a human was taken, since this was done behind her back.  Its her right to choose or exclude music as she sees fit.”  Below is what Shannon says in the book.  There is much more to this than she reveals.  Josh was a gentleman (to a fault at times).  It could result in passivity and abdication as in the case of C.J.  He was not an abusive husband.  He loved Shannon.
 
“One Valentine’s dinner I wanted to have a glass of wine and Josh asked me not to for fear it would get back to someone higher up.  One day I came home to discover my childhood music collection had been thrown away for the very same reason.” (p. 118)
 
There is more to this story and Shannon is often misleading in her book.  For example, she uses the word “childhood.”  I bet it was music from her teenage years.
 
Van Rue
Brent Detwiler participating even passively in the abuse of others, is abuse Brent.  Under 18 is legally a child, your nit-picking is irrelevant.  What Shannon experienced was abuse, and Josh participated.
 
Brent Detwiler
Van Rue Because I believe men and women have equal worth but complimentary roles and responsibilities, I am a women hater, a misogynist.  But you don’t stop there, I am also a racist.  “I will ask you to retract and apologize your statement above praising Josh’s abusive actions: its racist, misogynistic.”  Van, you are the one who is abusive.  I will not allow any further comments like these.
 
Brent Detwiler
Van Rue You may want to consult a dictionary for the definition of childhood. “1. The state or time of being a child; esp., the period from infancy to puberty. 2. an early stage of development.” 

Yvonne Taylor
Excellent recommendation.  It’s a very thin line that separates the abuse of power and the love that binds . When we understand that boundaries are protective and experience the love that observing those boundaries creates it works and it’s not punishing. 

Rosie Marie
Thanks for sharing this.  Such a sad situation.  CJ will give an account and as you said, it is a dreadful thing to fall in the hands of the living God.
 
Jennifer Smith
Brent Detwiler, what is CJ Mahoney doing now?  Is he still in active ministry? 

Mark Burns
Jennifer Smith https://www.sgclouisville.org/our-pastors
 
SGCLOUISVILLE.ORG
Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville - Our Pastors
 
Steve Wells
Jennifer Smith Mahaney compared his fall to that of Job and also wants to attribute it to Satan vs. realizing his own sin and hypocrisy is the cause.  He pastors a church in Lousville KY where he fled after his sin and hypocrisy was exposed.
 
Brent Detwiler
Jennifer Smith C.J. is also one of nine Regional Directors for Sovereign Grace Churches.  He oversees the churches in the east-central part of the United States.  He also has family and friends on the Global Leadership Team (e.g. Mark Prater, Brian Chesmore, Bob Kauflin, Jeff Purswell) that he counsels and directs.
 
Jennifer Smith
Brent Detwiler I didn’t realize Sovereign Grace was still going strong as a movement.  That’s concerning…
 
Brent Detwiler
Jennifer Smith It is still going but not going strong.  Over the last 8 years they have added two net churches in North America.  That is all and most of the national leaders that once supported them have severed ties.  Nevertheless, it is a concern they are still going.
 
Steve Wells
Jennifer Smith in some ways the leaders that supported Mahaney and minimized his sin are a major contributor to Mahaney’s deception.  Probably why Mahaney can’t see his,own sin. 

Rick Venglarcik
Steve Wells I agree with your perspective here.  That is the one aspect of Calvinism I simply cannot accept. 

Satan, created perfect, had free will and yet “fell away.”  Can we then argue he was never pure, holy, and one with God in Heaven?  I think such a strict Calvinistic view, when examining the case of Satan, sort of eviscerates the “once saved, always saved” concept and a lot of cognitive dissonance is required to accept such a doctrine. 

Ultimately, people can fall away, run away, and quit anything...even God’s love, IMO.  It strikes me as a very rigid and silly work-around (judging) to exclude such people by proclaiming they were “never truly saved.”  This is not a thing we have any authority to proclaim.  The whole concept strikes me as one gigantic “no true Scotsman” fallacy writ across the entire faith.  We allegedly have free will, but in Calvinism it gets taken away. 

As far as 1 John 2, we have the author’s words and description, along with a judgment on a situation where we do not have all the facts.  Yes, it is Holy writ, inspired by God...but that does not make it prescriptive for the faith...just Calvinism.  I think the passage speaks more to the sorts of flim-flam artists, con-men, and liars who “join” the faith for reasons other than salvation.  And if I may...by the same kind of known sinners who often co-opt the faith for votes in elections, by their paying lip-service thru the use of “Christianese” ...religion being “the last refuge of scoundrels” and all. 

Megan Hoyt
Rick Venglarcik Yes!

Steve Wells
Rick Venglarcik you give an interesting perspective.  Thanks.  It still baffles me to read Brent write and contradict what he claims to believe.

Kerry Baldwin
Rick, what does Satan’s falling have anything to do with Calvinism?

Brent Detwiler
Rick Venglarcik It is not a “work around.”  The Bible repeatedly indicates that those who fall entirely and finally give evidence to the fact they were “never truly saved.” 

Brent Detwiler
When I wrote the Statement of Faith for Sovereign Grace Ministries, here is what I said about the perseverance of the saints. 

“All believers are exhorted to persevere in the faith knowing they will have to give an account to God for their every thought, word and deed.  The spiritual disciplines, especially Bible study, prayer, worship and confession, are a vital means of grace in this regard.  Nevertheless, the believer’s ultimate confidence to persevere is based in the sure promise of God to preserve His people until the end which is most certain.”
 
This addresses the both/and teaching of Scripture.  That is, human responsibility and God’s sovereignty.
 
Brent Detwiler
Rick Venglarcik I John 2:18-24 has nothing to do with “flim-flam artists, con-men, and liars who “join” the faith for reasons other than salvation.”  The passage has to do with antichrists who deny Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh.  Please consult a Bible introduction or commentary.  That said, there are plenty of “flim-flam artists...” 

Megan Hoyt
That depends entirely on who “us” is.  If pastors and church members so abuse the sheep that they’re too bruised and battered to remain, then I pity them at judgment day because they are the ones to blame for the battered sheep falling away.  In other words, “us” needs to behave like Jesus and the early church or that verse in John is inappropriate.  Does Josh belong to “us” now?  No, and why would he? 

Yvonne Taylor
Megan Hoyt while spiritual abuse is a truly heinous act I do think a person who knows the Lord will get past it and remain a Christian.  It may deeply damage their ability to to trust and cause a lifetime of relational issues but the scriptures clearly show in Job and elsewhere the depth of that relationship and the Lords sustaining love. 

Megan Hoyt
Yvonne Taylor That is true, and I’ll bet Josh comes around. It’s just wrong to suggest that he never was a Christian in the first place simply because he is currently far from the Lord.  He needs time and unconditional love, and so does Shannon.  We failed them. 

Yvonne Taylor
Megan Hoyt agreed

Jill Huzzard Tatter
Yvonne Taylor unfortunately, Shannon wasn’t given much of an opportunity to know the Lord before she was...(I don’t even know the right word to use here). 

Yvonne Taylor
Jill Huzzard Tatter I get it and I understand .  Sometimes we underestimate who God is and how he works in the hearts of the ones who have suffered the most.

Brent Detwiler
Yvonne Taylor Believers in the OT, NT, and throughout church history have suffered far more than Shannon and remained faithful to Christ.  There is never a reason to repudiate him.

Yvonne Taylor
Brent Detwiler absolutely true! 

Marquez Renee
Unfortunately she is not the first person to swing so far on the pendulum that they question everything they were ever told by their pastors, leaders, church members, husband, and those who elevated this couple so high and then her husband crashes and even his sexuality comes into play.  It’s no wonder people in these circles under the type of legalistic and horrible theology that is being drilled into them.  I believe we need to address the core issues of how she got here now that she’s here!  This woman is so screwed up and we can thank those in CJ’s circle along with many others for pushing this wicked theology and control onto the church.  I hope I’m making sense.  Brent I agree with you what she’s saying is 100% wrong but remember she did not get her on her own!  Satan has a foothold in the church especially in the circle you came out of.  Fortunately for you, you didn’t swing far but remained steadfast in the Lord and stood for what is right. 

Brent Detwiler
Marquez Renee She was not taught a “horrible theology.”  She was taught the great doctrines of Scripture.  Please read “Dug Down Deep” by Joshua.  It is excellent.  That is the “theology” she was taught.  “She got here” by the sinful choices she made and because of her willful rejection of Scripture including the account of Eve in Genesis 2-3.
 
Geoffrey Williams
Brent Detwiler I think we need to also realize that teaching is not just about formal instruction.  It is also how one lives and what type of rule one lives under.  Some might say that is even more powerful.  Many cults have pretty sound formal instruction.  It’s how it is lived that makes it a cult, creates power exchange, abuse, manipulation, and most of all, creates victims.
 
Brent Detwiler
Geoffrey Williams There were issues of integrity, hypocrisy, and abusive leadership surrounding some leaders in Sovereign Grace but there were also many godly pastors and people who modeled the faith.  Don’t make yourself or others into victims.  We have all been sinned against but that is life in a fallen world.  It doesn’t cripple you.  Shannon had many outstanding examples.  I disagree that, “Many cults have sound formal instruction.”
 
Geoffrey Williams
Brent Detwiler as a student of religious movements, church history, and aberrant faith groups for decades both practically and academically in undergraduate school at Huntington and also graduate school at Princeton Seminary and an author of a related manuscript published and admitted in the Princeton library, I can tell you that it is very clear that certain themes are consistent in most cults.  It is also very evident that formal instruction, statements of faith, and curricula often reflect the classic doctrines of Christianity.  To deny this is simply your lack of familiarity and study.  How life is lived with the group defines most cults and those behaviors are consistent: for example, control, manipulation, power exchanges, secretive features of doctrine and behavior, inner circle dependence and failure, financial and sexual exploitation, etc.  It is why people get sucked in without realizing.  The cults that are obviously off are much more easily identifiable and might be the most famous and what many people think of when they hear the term cult.  They are also usually the least dangerous with notable exceptions.  The most dangerous cults are those that are not so obvious.  As for victims, I am not one to advocate victim positioning.  And, while I was misled and mistreated, I do not consider myself a victim.  However, there are real psychological and spiritual consequences for those fallen into being manipulated and controlled.  There are real victims and it is important to advocate for their healing in all aspects, the most important of which is their relationship with God.  Institutional or individual systemic abuse renders victims by definition.
 
Brent Detwiler
Geoffrey Williams I studied the cults under the world renowned expert, Dr. Walter Martin.  I know the theology of the cults.  For example Mormonism which denies the incarnation, Trinity, the sufficiently of grace, and much more.  It is the largest cult in America.  The fundamental thing that defines a cult is whether they get the gospel right.  Aberrant behavior is second.
 
Marquez Renee
Brent Detwiler I love Dr Walter Martin what a brilliant man and one who I respect.  It’s so great to see someone else who knows about his book kingdom of the cults and what he taught.
 
Geoffrey Williams
Brent Detwiler yes, I am very familiar with Dr. Walter Martin, and one of my close friends and Princeton classmates was one of his family members.  I can tell you some stories.  Regardless, cults are defined by formal doctrine and informal doctrine, AKA, behavior.  Either or both determine it.  Mormonism is an obvious cult.  Dr Martin’s work was good on obvious cults and the work of CRI was very important at the time especially regarding aberrant charismatic groups and the word of faith movement.  There are so many that aren’t obvious.  And, while his ministry was important and informative, there are so many better research sources and much better scholarship available than his.  I am not here to debate authority.  Cults are plentiful and they have a trail of victims.  Many of the victims are your readers and followers - not victims of you (for clarification).
 
Brent Detwiler
Geoffrey Williams What I appreciated most about Dr. Martin’s teaching was his careful use of primary sources.  We’d read the cultist literature and then analyze or compare to Scripture.  He was recognized as the foremost expert on the cults for several decades.  There may be better today but he was the best then.  His book, Kingdom of the Cults was the standard text in evangelical seminaries.
 
Brent Detwiler
Geoffrey Williams You say, “One of my close friends and Princeton classmates was one of his family members.  I can tell you some stories.”  I am familiar with his faults.  I was VP of the student body and on the liaison committee between students and faculty.  Several professors were friends.  I was involved when conflicts arose among faculty members.  That said the vast majority were godly men.  The seminary was the first in the world to explicitly teach inerrancy “in the whole and in the parts.”  It was part of our Statement of Faith.  This is when Fuller Theological Seminary began teaching the Bible is inspired but it also contained errors.  That is untenable.  Watler Martin was one of the key players in articulating complete inerrancy in the autographa or original texts of Scripture in all it affirms.
 
Marquez Renee
Brent Detwiler I’m not saying she wasn’t taught good scripture however a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump!  Also what do you mean by creates victims?  Also she was spiritually abused and out of it sinful choices aren’t made solely on her willfulness to just sin!  When abusers use scripture/theology to abuse it changes people.  Does this mean we walk around being the victim all the time?  Absolutely not!  Does it mean that living in a way that is disobedience to Christ is excused?  No!  It just means that this woman is the result of wicked abusers who took what God said and twisted it hitting her and others over the head with their perverted theology.  Then we’re all shocked that she swings so far outfield.  She’s the lost sheep that God leaves the 99 to go find.  As believers absolutely don’t accept disobedience but I also believe Grace should be applied to!  I still to this day can’t be in a church.  What was done to my son what was done to me in the aftermath of his rape was almost as unbearable as the assault on him.  Does God love me less?  Am I being a victim?  No I love the Lord and the church but I no longer will subject myself into a corporation.  That’s not church but men who use the church as a business.  My opinion you don’t need to agree.  It’s not a hill to die on nor have division over.  My son was a victim but never lived as one because we looked to Jesus and he carried us.  I say us because I felt everything, saw everything, went through it with my son.  To this day I’m still picking up the pieces of my heart.  One day when I’m in glory it will be no more.  And today I look at what God has done to bring a lot of healing.  This woman needs to experience Christ as she should have from day one.  Call out the disobedience for sure.
 
Brent Detwiler
Their theology was not perverted.  It constituted the best of classical evangelical doctrine.  Sometimes it was misapplied but Shannon benefitted from excellent teaching.  She has no excuse.  She has simply decided to rebel against God, Christ, and the Bible.
 
What you and your son suffered has no comparison to what Shannon experienced. I deeply respect the fact you do not see yourselves as victims and continue in your love and affection for Christ.
 
You say, “I no longer will subject myself into a corporation.  That’s not church but men who use the church as a business.”  I agree.
 
I hope you find a church with godly leaders who are not motivated by personal ambition and are seeking to advance the interests of Jesus Christ.
 
Marquez Renee
Brent Detwiler I believe she also received good teaching but it was also muddled with bad.  It creates confusion is what I’m saying.
 
Yes, I agree about men not the church.  I still meet with believers so not to forsake the church.  I refuse to engage by attending churches who are 501c3.
 
Marquez Renee
Brent Detwiler we definitely are not victims.  However I have not forgotten and there will be a time I will address those who inflicted spiritual abuse.  In the meantime I’m just saying I understand why she may be where she’s at spiritually.  I don’t agree nor do I support her in it, I just get how things like this twist people up.  Her response isn’t isolated.   I know another from my former church who did the same thing. Actually I know of several but the woman I refer to it’s almost identical their responses to their abuse.  I believe Shannon was spiritually abused. Is it an excuse?  No!  Do I want her to find peace in Jesus and aligne herself with Him?  YES!  Has she gone to far?  YES!  Is she responsible for her own actions?  YES!  Is she a hurt person?  yes!!!!!  That’s all I’m saying.  I’m understanding a bit of why she’s like this now.

Tom Ondulich 
very informative read.  and heartbreaking to the core.  sin is so destructive, evil and has huge consequences far beyond measure.  this makes me fear and tremble before a Holy God that behold your sin will find you out.  may we all take seriously the sinfulness of sin.  Jesus save us 

Paul Smith 
Being hurt badly is not a valid excuse for unbiblical teaching.  I know of a loved and admired PCA pastor who has hurt multiple people badly and displays narcissistic characteristics while the Reformed world cheers on.  There is no excuse for that kind of “ministry.”
 
But the people who he has harmed still have the responsibility to live vibrant Christian lives.
 
This is in no way saying that my heart does not break for victims of that PCA pastor. 

Marquez Renee 
A lot of people here are sun [sin] checking this woman.  I say call out the sun [sin] let God deal with her heart.  None of us know what is in her heart other than it’s clear she’s struggling with her faith and walk with the Lord.  One can easily judge king David’s actions far worse than hers yet we don’t dare because God knew his heart not man.  

Isaac Castro
Each of us have the opportunity to draw near, or reject our loving Father.  He never changes, and his Word will always cut the BS we try to twist it into.  Shannon may not have understood how the Word paints her magnificent role as an “ezer” [helper] (and if not …  

Chris Fillingim
So Brent you’re saying you were lead into legalism by SGM
 
Carabeth Leibig Ott Foster
I know you have taken on a huge task in continuing to educate the public about the mis use of power SG has used over people!  I pray for you and am grateful for you!  Unless you’ve escaped it you can’t understand it fully!  I still have “knee jerk reactions” to things in my life and then remember that I have been liberated from those traumatizing thoughts!  Thank you is not enough to say for what you do Brent!  Praying for Shannon, she is a wonderful person! 

Charisa Falcione
It is one thing to call out a person for abuse, covering up abuse, breaking laws, hurting other etc. but it is another all together to call out someone based on their lived experiences and journey in their life.  To use her experience to accentuate your point on CJ seems fair game as that includes some serious harm.  But to personally attack shannon for how she is processing or feeling about an issue is off brand.  You’re all about exposing corruption in the church?  How is calling judgment on a woman who’s been through so much doing that?  Or scoffing at her career, skills, or assumptions about her family and friends? 

Erin Hill
Charisa Falcione I couldn’t agree more! 
Christianity is the religion of condemnation, judgment and casting stones.  When one serves an angry and jealous god, it makes total sense to see that person perpetuating that same behavior as their god to their fellow “brothers and sisters”.  So I’m not in any way surprised that Brent wrote this article or that there are comments on here that support his thought.  I’m so glad to not be a part of this system anymore.  I hope Shannon is living her best life and finding peace as she rebuilds away from the wreckage of sovereign grace and evangelical christianity.
 
Brent Detwiler
Charisa Falcione I have not “personally attacked Shannon” but I have confronted her apostasy with her good in mind.  There is no greater sin than to have “known” Christ and then trample him under your feet, consider unclean his precious blood, and insult the Spirit of grace he sends.
 
Nor did I scoff at her.  I said, “She is left alone at age 49 with no marriage and family as she attempts a career in the performing arts with average talent as a professional singer, composer, actor, and writer.”  I think she is “average” as a professional.  That is not mocking her. 
 
Brent Detwiler
Erin Hill The God of Scripture is infinitely holy.  He is great beyond description and perfectly righteous.  He hates sin and must judge it.  That is why God the Father sent God the Son to come and die in our place.  This was necessary because He is “an angry and jealous” God.  
 
But He is also the God of all grace.  There is no greater expression of His love than the cross of Christ.  At the cross, we behold the holiness, wrath, love, grace, and wisdom of God.  
 
Shannon is not “living her best life and finding peace.”  That is only possible when we live by His grace, for His glory, and because of the cross.  It is hard to fathom how you now hate the gospel you once extolled.

Erin Hill
Brent Detwiler does that mean you’re gonna do a hit piece on me now 
 
Brent Detwiler
Erin Hill No, I’m not interested in a “hit piece” and I have already written about you before.  

Erin Hill’s Disturbing “Hate” Mail & Bad Theology Illustrates Indifference to Extraordinary Deceit of Lead Pastor P.J. Smyth by Most Covenant Life Members
Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 3:10PM 

Erin Hill
Brent Detwiler I love this version of myself and give her so much love.  She had bought in to many lies and had lost her voice for over a decade, I’m proud of her for the courage she thought she was displaying even if she was misguided.  Thank you for the reminder of how badass I am and that articles that you write are so confusing because your bitterness screams so loudly even if you are writing truth.  You actually have such a powerful gift but it is overshadowed by your own internal grief and inability to let shit go.  As a fellow human being on planet earth…good luck on the rest of your journey
 
Brent Detwiler
I hope you will repent of your Christless version of yourself and return to Him as a humble servant rather than persist as a “badass.”   People should read the article I wrote about your hate mail and bad theology.  It demonstrates your bitterness which only continues.
 
Charisa Falcione
Brent Detwiler I’m not sure if you wrote this for everybody else to see or for Erin to read, but she can’t see it.  Maybe you’ve blocked her?
 
Charisa Falcione
Since Erins posts are deleted and she is not able to speak for herself, I would like all your readers to know that your characterization of her is false.  She is far more like Christ than what I observe most “Christians” to be.  As far as bitterness, she holds none.  And where it pops up she releases it as fast as she can.  It is really sad the way you presume to know about a person and their life and cast judgment so quickly and publicly.
 
Brent Detwiler
Charisa Falcione None of her post are deleted and I’ve allowed her defend herself or say whatever she wants.  My writing is always rooted and grounded in documented evidence that is fairly presented.  I do nothing “quickly.”  My judgements are based upon facts.  As the article about Shannon demonstrates.  As the article about Erin demonstrates.  Moreover, she defended P.J. Symth contrary to all the evidence when I proved he was covering up the sexual abuse of his predatory father and lying to Covenant Life Church as their lead pastor.  Finally, he was ousted.  Her attacks on me were genuinely bitter and utterly unfounded.
 
Mieke Clincy
Brent Detwiler so strange, I don’t see any of Erin Hill’s comments anymore—no idea what you’re responding to…. Charisa Falcione

Charisa Falcione
Mieke Clincy yeah. I think its because Brent blocked her.  When he did that her posts were deleted.  Thank you for confirming.
 
Paul Barrios
Charisa Falcione silencing the opposition… shame.
Boo this man!

Brent Detwiler
Paul Barrios “Boo this man!”  Boo all you want but I never intended to delete Erin Hill’s comments when I blocked her.  I did not know blocking automatically removes them.  I will be creating an article that includes all of them.

Erin Hill
Also.  This article is bullshit. 

Charisa Falcione
Erin Hill yep.

Demostenes Valera
That happens when we do followers of us instead of Christ.  I never liked that religious group. It is for me, like another human philosophy seasoned with Scriptures, full of hipocresy.  I agree with the concept of discipleship based on Jesus’ principles not in men’s interpretation.  Sorry to admit, but I knew this is going to happen.  Now I laugh at them loudly.  Greetings from Peru.  I read all what you write. 

Ben Zubrowski
I don’t know why any church would still want to associate and be under the leadership and name of Soverign Grace.  CJ and many of these shady leaders need be shut down.
 
Steve Wells
This was also interesting that Shannon wrote: 

“CJ AND CAROLYN were church royalty.  And as such they maintained a few degrees of separation between themselves and the commonfolk.  I suspect this was something that had originally” 

“They encouraged us to separate ourselves from the rest of the church in the same ways that they did.  More than a few times I was firmly instructed by Carolyn to keep leadership issues private.” 

Christine Pack
No thanks to these rigid gender roles.  I lived it and it almost killed me.  Brent, I agree with you on so much as a whistleblower and as an advocate for abuse survivors, but when it comes to the roles in Comp/Patriarchy, there I have to part company with you.  I see that ideology as the scaffolding that upholds the kind of abuse that Shannon Harris (and so many others) endured.  So as much as it pains me to disagree with you on this, I do disagree. 

Brent Detwiler
Christine Pack The issue is what does Scripture teach.  In that regard I make my case from the texts and teaching of Scripture.  Thanks for the kind words.
 
Megan Hoyt
Brent Detwiler I wonder, though, if we have so elevated scripture that we ignore the personhood of the Godhead it describes.  Thinking about the Deborahs God has used and wondering how that upsets the apple cart of patriarchy.  Isn’t it possible that God is above all man-made things, including patriarchy?
 
Brent Detwiler
Megan Hoyt Patriarchy is not a “man-made thing.”  It is a God thing!  He ordained it.  It started with his creation of Adam.  Eve was created from him, for him, and after him.  She was his helper.  Male leadership in the home and church is the clear teaching of Scripture in the OT and NT.  Deborah was a rare OT exception and it came about by default because men were not leading.  She does not upset the cart of patriarchy in any way.  Go back to my article and study all the Scripture I supplied.
 
Brent Detwiler
Megan Hoyt We would know nothing about the personhood of the Godhead if not for Scripture.  And note, we worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit is always referred to as a “He.”  The Trinity exemplifies male leadership at the highest level.

Christine Pack
Brent Detwiler thanks for the kind response.  I will simply say that I also have a high view of scripture, and that my position of egalitarianism is grounded in scripture.  So it comes down to interpretation on what is a secondary matter.
 
Christine Pack
Brent I recommend you consider Marg Mowczko’s resources 
 
Marcia Montenegro
Brent Detwiler It may be semantics but I do not think the Bible is patriarchal  Patriarchy is very authoritarian and oppressive and is something I associate with Islam, for example.  We see that even in the OT women had more freedom than the women in the pagan cultures and this was also true in the early church.  I agree there are roles for men and women and I do not support a woman being pastor, but I also do not use the word patriarchy for the Bible.  I don’t think patriarchal cultures see women as equals.
 
Brent Detwiler
Marcia Montenegro The word “patriarch” is the word used in the Bible for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the 12 sons of Jacob (Acts 7:8), David (Acts 2:29).  They were not “very authoritarian and oppressive.”  Many have sought to distort the word but it is the right word to use in reference to the men God called to establish Israel.  
 
The word is not used in the NT to describe leaders.  In the home, men are referred to as the “head” of their wife and household.  In the church, they are called overseers, elders, pastors, and leaders.  
 
Male leadership is ordained by God in the Old and New Testament and that leadership is radically different from Islam.
 
Christine Pack
Marcia Montenegro in my experience, those in the Patriarchy movement see women as equals in the same way that “separate but equal” Jim Crow laws said blacks were equal.  Which is to say, there is no equality.  There wasn’t for blacks during the Jim Crow era, and there isn’t for women under Patriarchy.
 
Megan Hoyt
Christine Pack Yes, and that was my original point.  The conservative reformed church at large is not exemplifying the early church at all well, and patriarchal ideas are what led to incredibly horrific sexual abuse.  Women like “Esther” are told if they leave their abusive husband they will be excommunicated.  This happened to my friend at Sovereign Grace Church in Chesapeake.  The abuser was let off scot free.  This is not what God had in mind.  I think you’re mishandling scripture if you don’t see that it was affected by the current culture.  There were no jobs for women, no gov’t social benefits for widows.  Things addressed in the Bible are not all meant to be doctrine.  But I’ll leave the conversation now.  I’m thinking you’re just at a different place on the journey and viewing through masculine eyes.  And maybe rose-colored glasses.
 
Megan Hoyt
Brent Detwiler Do you believe your wife was created for you?  Eek.  When I said “the Deborahs” I meant throughout history.  Or do you think women who are used by God today are only being used because a man refused that call?
 
Christine Pack
Megan Hoyt I think you might be misunderstanding my comments?  Or maybe I am misunderstanding you 
 
Brent Detwiler
Megan Hoyt Jenny was my precious “helpmate” (Gen. 2:18).  She is with the Lord now.  Here is my tribute to her. http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/.../a-tribute-to-my...

ABRENTDETWILER.SQUARESPACE.COM
A Tribute to My Dear Jenny (07/08/60 – 01/18/23) - BrentDetwiler.com -
 
Marcia Montenegro
Brent Detwiler I said nothing against male leadership.  The word “patriarch” in the NT simply means “father” and/or “founder of the family” so it has nothing to do with the term as it is used today.  When used by those promoting that word or promoting patriarchy today, it is used with a meaning that is not biblical.  Or at least that is the effect of the teaching.

Brent Detwiler
Marcia Montenegro I never suggested you said anything against male leadership.  As you know ἀρχός (arch) means leader or ruler.  And πατριά (patria) means family.  A patriarch was not only a progenitor of a family but also the leader or ruler over the family he founded.

Marcia Montenegro
Brent Detwiler I think you are making the etymological fallacy. The meaning of the word is in usage not the roots of the words etymologically and the interpretation of father or head of family is all it means.  It does not mean in those 2 passages that the man was the ruler and you also bring in a lot of problems with the word “ruler.”  There is the meaning in the context of scripture and the meaning used today by the patriarchal movements.
 
Brent Detwiler
Marcia Montenegro You are badly mistaken that etymology has no relevance or application.  But I also agree “the meaning of the word is in the usage.”  One need only study how the patriarchs led their families and the people of God to understand it usage.  “The interpretation of father or head of family is all it means.”  It means more but not less.  That said, I agree a patriarch was the “head of [his] family.”  This includes the leadership of his family, not just begetting children.  It cannot be restricted to being a father in the biological sense.  Like God the Father, it involves headship and leadership.  For example “Abraham commanded his household” (Gen. 18:19).

Marcia Montenegro
Brent Detwiler “head of the family” does not mean what patriarchal means in today’s usage in the church.  Yes, Abraham was a leader of his family but patriarchy today in the church has an unhealthy focus on male headship, it is abused.  Btw, I am not an egalitarian; as I said, I think the Bible teaches women should not be in a pastoral role or in leadership over men in the church.
 
Brent Detwiler
Marcia Montenegro I agree there are problems in the patriarchal movement. Thankfully, we have the headship of Christ over the church as the richest and truest definition on loving leadership.
 
Brent Detwiler
Megan Hoyt All Scripture is breathed out by God (2 Tim. 3:16).  It is not “affected by the current culture.”  I am aware of the example you cite at SGC in Chesapeake.  I agree, it was terribly handled by Gene Emerson and the pastors.  The husband got off, and the wife suffered. 

Christine Schofer Gormley 
Does her book include any kind of apology for the toxic pressure that she put on her fellow sisters in church?  She was dishing it out just as much as the men, perpetuating the party line.

Brent Detwiler 
Christine Schofer Gormley No she doesn’t. 

Lisa Haber Burkhard 
Here stands Shannon, fearfully and beautifully created, woven together in her mother’s womb, full of ideas and talents, full of hope and vision, full of imagination and vigor. 

There walks a man who tells her to conform to his ideal for a wife.  Her autonomy is severed. 

There stands a woman who tells her to conform to a church’s ideal for a wife of a leader. Her passion is directed. 

There stands a man who snuffs out those things God placed in her so she fits his mold of a good Christian wife.  Her light is diminished. 

Here are the thousands people’s eyes focused upon her to make sure she has twisted herself into the appropriate pretzel.  Her spirit is crushed under the weight. 

Here stands yet another man, putting into writing his condemnation of her.  He feels entitled to critique not only her book, but her means to self-preservation. 

Here stands a woman, who has swum through the immense tidal storm.  She has found the will to survive. 

I, for one, applaud the woman. 

Charisa Falcione 
Lisa Haber Burkhard beautiful 

Brent Detwiler 
Lisa Haber Burkhard Your narrative is beautifully written but entirely false.
 
Lisa Haber Burkhard 
Brent Detwiler False?
How is it that YOU know this woman’s testimony more accurately than SHE does?  Does not your indictment “False” serve as evidence to support her claims that men have snuffed out her voice?
 
You may hold the history of accounts in your hands, but can you not comprehend that you do not know, or hold, the hearts?  That you do not hold the power to sit as Judge, especially over the hearts of women (which I know must cut deeply as your own wife divorced you)?
 
Your former system judged women so much more harshly than it did the men, enacted upon women a burden more crushing than it did upon the men.
 
I’m asking you to pause and ponder this for a moment.
 
Men were exalted.  Kings of their castles.  Women were pawns, used for prestige, power and play (sex).  What women wanted was wrong.  Insignificant.
 
She had no right to want, to desire, to use her brain or talent that the Lord bestowed upon her as a gift unless the man, um men, in her life permitted it.
 
Is there not only ONE mediator between God and men?
 
But men set themselves on throne of the Church, at the helm of the home, directing the women as if their “most sinful” natures were perfectly equipped to wield the conductor’s baton at them.
 
“Serve here.” “Submit there.” “Listen to me!” “Do this.” “Don’t do that.” “Wear this.” “Don’t wear that.” “Play now.” “Play my way.” “Obey me!”
 
Who permitted her the rights to her own life?  To her own voice?
 
Even now, you wish to conduct Shannon into silence.
 
Why do you feel you have the right to judge her?
 
Edit to add: Perhaps it has not occurred to you that an alternative review might have been either your silence or offering an apology for your part as leadership in foisting this false religion (or at the least, false religious system) upon the people.
 
Brent Detwiler 
Your caricature is so grossly exaggerated it has little to no basis in reality.  You are the one who is sinfully judging without knowledge.  You are simply making things up to advance a feminist narrative.  For example, comments like these are reckless and untrue.
 
“Your former system judged women so much more harshly than it did the men, enacted upon women a burden more crushing than it did upon the men.” 
 
Or, “Men were exalted.  Kings of their castles.  Women were pawns, used for prestige, power and play (sex).  What women wanted was wrong.  Insignificant.” 
 
Or, “But men set themselves on throne of the Church, at the helm of the home, directing the women as if their “most sinful” natures were perfectly equipped to wield the conductor’s baton at them.”
 
These are absurdities.  I am not going to allow further comments that are blatantly false.  Who judges Shannon?  The Word of God, which she has betrayed.  Who judges Shannon?  Jesus Christ, the One she has renounced.

Let me give another example.  The subtitle of her book is, “Shattering the Illusion of the Good Christian Wife.” Here are a few descriptions of the good Christian wife or woman in the NT. 
 
Titus 2:3-5 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, [4] and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, [6] to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
 
Eph. 5:22-24 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. [23] For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. [24] Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
 
1 Tim. 2:11-14 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [12] I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve. [14] And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 
 
Throughout the book Shannon puts her subjective “knower” above the objective teaching of God’s word.  She says, “Any system that enables men to hold authority over women, and husbands over wives, is unreasonable and outdated.  This practice robs a woman of her full personhood” (p. 209).  Tragically, she is the one who has robbed herself of full personhood as a Christian wife, mother, and homemaker.
 
“Submit to their husbands in everything” (i.e., universal obedience) does not mean to criminal assaults or directives clearly contrary to the Word of God. 

Paul Barrios 
Are you her pastor?  Or a pastor in general anymore?  Leave people to live out their lives rather than keyboard warrior-ing for your own self promotion.
 
Can we also bring up AGAIN that your documents probably wouldn’t have seen the light of day had it not been for being “skipped over” for a job promotion?
 
I’m personally tired of hearing you beat the same drum in an attempt to remain relevant.  Especially when it involves people who have shown true grace through trauma.
 
Cheers 

Brent Detwiler 
Paul Barrios Nothing I’ve done is about self promotion.  It is about serving the body of Christ by exposing unrepentant evil of a serious nature including the sexual abuse of children and the cover up of the crimes by clergy.
 
The release of The Documents had absolutely nothing to do with being “skipped over” for a job promotion.  I voluntarily resigned as the #2 leader because I could no longer work directly for C.J. as a matter of conscience.  Your claim is completely untrue.
 
Finally, I wrote about Shannon because her book was released last August.  Not to be “relevant” but to address issues that are relevant (feminism, apostasy, misuse of Scripture, and the effect of C.J.’s sin).  This is the first opportunity I’ve had to finish it.
 
Mark Burns 
Brent Detwiler appreciate your good righteous work brother of exposing the darkness to the light.  Your humble truthfulness, transparency, integrity and love for Jesus Christ and His body is commendable to God’s glory and honor.  There will always be in this fallen world critics with their criticisms.  I haven’t once seen you self promoting Brent Detwiler!
 
Christine Schofer Gormley 
Paul Barrios geez, who peed in your cornflakes?  If you don’t like what, Brent said, just scroll along.
 
Paul Barrios 
Christine Schofer Gormley no one actually.  Have followed this from day one and there are some things that never sat well.
 
I was at CLC from 1998 - 2011 so I too had my own issues with all who were in charge, including people on the “A-Team” who knew about a lot of the issues and didn’t say anything until AFTER the docs came out.  They may have allegedly said things to each other behind closed doors but not to outside folks which includes law enforcement.
 
So my comment stands because that’s what it looked like to many of us….
1. How fast would all the scandals gotten out if it wasn’t for the docs?
2. Docs were released due to wanting to hold leadership accountable.
3. The docs came out conveniently after someone didn’t get one of the SGM regions.
4. If things went a different direction, what motivation would there have been to release the docs?
 
Again, it all looked super suspicious to those of us watching it unfold.
 
My stance today… I’ve forgive who I need to forgive and restored certain relationships because I got tired of beating a dead horse and kicking up the same SGM dust.
 
My comments above may have been a knee jerk reaction for the fact that he posted an article about a friend of mine that was unfounded and attacked her.  That sparked a lot of issues I’ve had regarding how he handled releasing the docs.
 
Charisa Falcione
Christine Schofer Gormley it wouldnt be a matter of scrolling along if it was your friend, a person that you know personally, and you know the entire story to, that Brents dragging in the mud.  He is wrong in his portrayal of Erin for one.
 
Paul Barrios
Charisa Falcione well said!  We stick up for our friends when they are mis-characterized 
 
Brent Detwiler
Charisa Falcione Your comments are totally irresponsible and completely misrepresentative.  I will not allow further comments like this one.  You are intentionally putting forth a false narrative.  Here is the article about Erin Hill.  Anyone interested in the truth can read it.  As I said in the article, “Erin wrote me back and that led to further correspondence.  I don’t share that correspondence to shame or embarrass her, but to address error in keeping with my tagline. ‘Helping Christians judge righteously, think biblically and live courageously.’”  
 
I did not attack her in any sense.
 
Brent Detwiler
Paul Barrios You are in the same boat as Charisa.  Your comments are also erroneous and reprehensible.  You are intentionally misrepresenting the facts.  I will not allow any more of your deceit and lying.  I will also be addressing other of your fallacious comments to come.
 
Brent Detwiler
Here is the article about Erin Hill.  She was the one attacking me not me attacking her.  I was kind and gracious. 

Erin Hill’s Disturbing “Hate” Mail & Bad Theology Illustrates Indifference to Extraordinary Deceit of Lead Pastor P.J. Smyth by Most Covenant Life Members
Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 3:10PM

Brent Detwiler
Paul Barrios You say, “3. The docs came out conveniently after someone didn’t get one of the SGM regions.”  This is absolutely false.  I sent out The Documents to the SGM pastors when C.J. deceived the movement about his reasons for taking a leave of absence.  I left SGM two years earlier.  Your ignorance is of great concern.  So is your lack of integrity. 

My Thoughts on C.J.'s Leave of Absence
Friday, August 5, 2011 at 5:10PM

Brent Detwiler
Paul Barrios You say, “4. If things went a different direction, what motivation would there have been to release the docs?”  My motivation in sending the The Documents to the SGM pastors in private was so they could address C.J. and see through his deception.  Then they were posted on the internet and went viral.  All of this is clear in my writings.  You obviously are not conversant with their content.

Debi Waldin
Well written article, Brent!  You obviously called out the sinful things - which is totally appropriate - and you showed compassion for the way that both Shannon and Josh were treated by CJ and others.  There is nothing that others can do to us though to justify sin.  My prayer is that she finds her way to Jesus and that if she never truly experienced what it was to be “born again” that the spirit will draw her to himself.  Keep up the good work!  This is one of my favorite articles that you have written. 

 Brent Detwiler
I’m no longer taking comments.  I’m working on a post with existing comments.

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